Curiouser and curiouser ...

-SG- Back in April 2018 we had a brief posting about Don Morley's vintage CS1 - which he had said, slightly optimistically in my view, he thought was Stanley Woods' 1927 TT machine. He no longer had the machine at the time and was thus unable to provide useful detail like engine and frame numbers.  

However, many thanks are due to Martin, who has recently done a bit of research for me into the bike's apparent registration number JO 8834. And what did he find? That this number was first allocated by Oxford County Council, on 24th April 1934, to a Mr J C Bowman living in Downham Market. And the machine it related to is shown as a Model 30 Norton International. So quite how JO 8834 finished up on a standard looking Moore CS1 is anyone's guess! A scan is attached of the entry in the Oxford records.

1907 Nortons

 

-SG- The latest edition of the Classic Motorcycle contains a fairly lengthy article (via this link) on this subject by well known journalist Alan Cathcart. Alan had the pleasure of a canter on Sammy Miller's example, the bones of which were imported from South America not long ago.

The article mentions four 'survivors' including the Fowler Fake in the NMM, about which we have probably written too much for the site already! Sad to say, it appears to me the other three machines mentioned are also of, shall we say, somewhat  dubious parentage!

When is a Norton not a Norton ...

 

-SG- ... when it's a South Australian Railways copy! 

Many thanks to Leon for a profusion of photos - and information - regarding the 557cc SAR engine dating from about 1910 to 1915.  It seems they were fitted to small railway maintenance trucks and quite a few of them were to be had back in the sixties and seventies.  But now, they are pretty rare.  

Although the crankcase castings incorporate substantial extra mounting lugs, it is very clearly a Norton copy. Whether Nortons were paid any sort of premium for use of their basic design is not known. The photos of the cylinder barrels - Norton on the right in all cases - shows the design similarity and the cams/followers look much like those employed during the twenties.

Rem's bike again!

 

-SG- The other day I was given a copy of the Montagu Motor Museum Catalogue for 1959. And lo and behold! a new story (to me) for the origin of the Rem Fowler fake! Original run over by a lorry!  Wonder if the National Motorcycle Museum knows that?

Things are seldom what they seem ...

 

-SG- ...skim milk masquerades as cream!  So wrote W S Gilbert in the still humorous Gilbert and Sullivan musical H M S Pinafore (first performance 1878). 

 And it seems to me those very words apply to a machine currently advertised on the Car and Classic web site. It is listed as a Model 25 and the restorer has certainly made a lot of effort to make it look like one. But is it?  The engine -  number fully visible in the photos - started life in a Model 21 supplied in March 1927 to dealers Harold Petty in Leicester, who in turn delivered it to their customer, another Leicester resident, later in March. The advertiser (in Italy) kindly gave me the frame number but  it is not the one which started life with this engine in it and frankly I could not find it in the records. But I accept I may have overlooked it. Suffice to say, it is not Model 25 as it is missing the full wrap around magneto support bracket on the front down tube. Other modifications to make it appear more like a Model 25 are the large size oil tank, large size petrol tank with top bleed tap, and LS gearbox - fitted to some Model 25s built to racing specification.  Also the very nicely made leather tank-top tool box. The forks are standard period Webbs and the front brake is a 7" unit by the looks of things. Model 25s had TT Webb forks and an 8" Enfield front hub. Of minor importance, the exhaust valve lifter mechanism fitted is of the type used on same period ES2s and 1929 Model 18/19s and the ML magneto is the wrong type. 

Is it a good looking machine ? Yes!  

I have suggested to the advertiser that he changes his description to 'Replica Model 25' - so far without response.

Is it worth the asking price of Euros 39.500? In my opinion, No! Something a bit over Euros 20.000 perhaps!

Bonham B... S... - at it again!

-SG- Our attention has been drawn by Stephen in Australia to the write-up in Bonhams' up-coming Stafford sale, relating to an entirely standard Model 18  from 1927. The Bonhams script writers have spent thirteeen lines of an eighteen line screed woffling on about D R O'Donovan - to whose Norton dealership in London this bike was originally despatched in  May 1927.  It was passed on to the end-user later that month - regrettably name and address illegible in the records.  The bike is described by Bonhams as a Model 18 Racing Motorcycle Project, presumably because, when it was last registered for road use in 1961, the applicant stated that it had not been registered before as it was used as a racing machine prior to that date! Yeah, right!  Having been around at the time, I am well aware that this was an excuse sometimes used by those wishing to register a bike which had no existing log book or registration number! Not sure the vehicle registration authorities would accept such an excuse these days ...

All this apart, the machine has matching frame and engine numbers, correct hubs (though re-rimmed), incorrect forks (Druids instead of Webbs) and is apparently missing sundry other items.  But, with a guide price of £5000 to £7000, it would not be a bad starting point for someone wishing to embark on a Norton flat-tank journey! Lot number, by the way, is 424!

PS: This lot sold for a rather amazing € 15,970 inc. premium

CS1 Cheffins Cambridge auction 20th Oct - lot 1226

-SG- Alan has drawn my attention to this 1928 CS1 sale - really looks a tidy restoration with only a few minor variations from standard and with a price guide of £18-20,000. The frame and engine numbers appear to be correct and matching BUT are they?  The Buff Logbook shows a CS prefix on the frame number which is wrong and more to the point - in my view - the frame number is stamped on the headstock. (Can't see if it has the same CS prefix on it.) In my experience, CS1 and ES2 frame numbers at the time were stamped on the lower front engine mount lug. I may be wrong of course and I accept there are exceptions to every rule but does this bike have a frame from another CS1/ES2 which has been re-numbered when the restoration was taking place?

PS; Robert has been in touch about frame number positions - see his message below. My own experiences don't conform to his views but this does not mean they are wrong!  Can we ask anyone with an EARLY CS1 or ES2 (ie late '27 or VERY early '28) to send us a quick message advising where their frame number is situated?  Incidentally, the CS1 I owned for a while dated from March 1928 and the number was down on the front engine mount lug.

"Robert: I have seen a very early 1928 CS1 frame with the number stamped in a similar fashion to that seen on the Cheffyns one. It did not have any letters and just had number stamps. For the very early frames, the number stamps appeared to be the same as those used on the engines.....At some stage the number migrated down to the front engine mount casting - probably later in the 1928 season, before moving back up again around 1930/1."

Fact or Figment ...

-SG- Respected professional photographer Don Morley has written various motorcycle books including one on Nortons. His Moore CS1 - which he no longer owns - has been pictured in various of them and I attach a print of it dating from around 1980.  It is, dare I say it, a 'typical of the period' restoration with some over-plating, the wrong carb., wrong magneto, and from what little I can see, an incorrect gearbox.

However, what may be important, if correct, is that Morley states it is actually Woods' 1927 works machine on which he achieved a record lap in the '27 TT. The registration number appears to be JO 8834 (issued from Jne. 1930 to Apr. 1934 by Oxford Council).  I feel this suggestion is doubtful, if for no other reasons than that the timing cover of this machine is of the regular CS1 production machine shape, and that the late 1927 road test of a CS1 with another registration number OP8644 (issued from Aug. 1926 to July 1927 by Birmingham Council), is stated as being the TT lap record holder as well as winner of the Swiss GP.

It would be interesting to have frame and engine numbers to check it out, especially as I have not, hitherto, been able to find entries in the records for the 1927 works CS1s or ES2s.

Yet another 1907 TT Norton ...

-SG- In December 2016 and July 2017 we had postings about a collection of parts purporting to be the remains of a 1907 Norton, reportedly purchased by Sammy Miller for a substantial sum from someone in South America ... Yes, South America!

I can't say I am wholly surprised at the fact that this bike has now been recreated and for those who are interested in this period of Norton history, there is a short YouTube movie offering about it in which said Mr Miller states that it is a 1907 TT Norton.

So now we have two contenders for this title, and neither is genuine, in my view or the opinions of others who know much more about this period than I do.

That aside, all credit to Sammy's workshop chaps for getting it together and up and running!

Mike has sent in the following additional comments: "Bob and his team have done wonders with what they had to start with, front part of a veteran Rover frame and forks and a Peugeot engine. Sammy has earned his membership to the magic circle, hey presto, another Rem Fowler "Veteran Norton!""

1907 (?) Norton

-SG- In December last year we carried a posting of a possibly rather dubious and claimed 1907 machine for sale in South America. This bike was puchased by Sammy Miller and is in the process of re-creation. Initially I heard that he was rather dis-satisfied with his acquisition but, none the less, work is proceeding on the bike as recent photos from the hallowed sanctum of his workshop at New Milton show (courtesy of Alan). I notice that, laying on the bench under the bike, is a copy of the well known 1907 photo of Rem Fowler and his bike, taken in the IOM, but hopefully, we are not going to finish up with another Fowler replica to add to the one in the NMM!

1927 Flat Tank racer - For sale

-JdK- Let us be absolutely clear: we like this bike. It looks good, we would like to have it in our shed and trash it on the road. We are quite sure it will be lots of fun. Flat tank OHV Nortons are brilliant.

It is for sale at HD Classics in Belgium and the problem is that it is priced at 57.000 euro. The advertiser suggests that the machine is a 'rare 1927 M25 TT racer' that was owned and raced by an Austrian chap named Rupert Karner.

Rupert Karner was not in the same league as Stanley Woods or Jimmie Guthrie and we had to find him on the internet.  Rupert indeed raced motorcycles but he killed himself riding a D.S.H motorcycle on the 20th of May 1928.

Perhaps Rupert had the habit of crashing motorcycles because the engine of this Norton (number 33388) left the factory in a Model 21, delivered on the 30th of March 1927 to the Demont Freres in Switzerland in a frame numbered 26439. The current frame bears number 30195; we cannot find it in the records but it bears all the hallmarks of a Model 18 frame.

Off course it could be true; Rupert obtained a genuine Model 25 Norton in 1927 (which would have been exceptional; few M25s were sold in 1927 before the CS1 arrived), crashed it almost immediately, replaced the frame with a Model 18 frame, found an almost new 1927 Model 21 engine, rebuilt the lot, put it in the shed and killed himself a few months later on a D.S.H motorcycle, whatever that may be.

This bike was on our website before. It was for sale for a hefty 42.500 euro in 2014 in Germany and now has found it's way to Belgium. As usual, each new owner adds a bit to the story and we would not be surprised if it is advertised next year as Stanley's 1927 TT winner.

As said, we like this Norton but it should perhaps be advertised as a '1927 racer replica built from very nice bits by someone in Germany'.

(We would like to thank Vicky of the VMCC library team for double-checking the frame and engine numbers of this motorcycle)

1907 Norton V-twin - For sale

-JdK- For sale on Prewarcar.com; a 1907 Norton. It looks in very good shape for a bike over one hundred years old though any buyer should do his homework and have a very close look at all the details and period pictures before making the purchase; little is known about these machines.

-SG- It has been suggested by a couple of regular site visitors with an interest in pre-WW1 models that this project may not be all it is cracked up to be. Comments made are:

• Front forks, wheels and handlebars appear to be incorrect.
• The frame is too long, and the rear section is incorrect, while the frame lugs are too heavy. 
• The saddle on the 1907 Norton fits in the top frame tube.
• The Peugeot engine may be correct for the period but it was used by other manufacturers besides Nortons.

All in all, like a certain other supposedly 1907 Norton, it appears to be a random collection of parts!

More rubbish from the National Motorcycle Museum

-SG- A further gem at the National Motorcycle Museum - this time labelled as a 1924 600cc Racer and kindly photographed by Alan. As can be seen the bike is quite a tidy flat tanker in what one could describe as sporting trim but it owes very little to the claimed year of 1924 and is not a 588 but a 490.

Absolute rubbish!

Apart from the crankcases, all the rest of the bike appears to be a 1928 Model 18 with a nicely lined 1929 oil tank thrown in for good measure. Forks and front wheel might be Model 25 but are more likely to be CS1/ES2 - also from '28 or thereabouts. But the specification part of the descriptive blurb contains numerous inaccuracies and relates in no way to the machine on display. A bit like the 'Fowler Norton' description all over again! Plain rubbish!

The (???) Bennett bike ...

-SG- We touched on this subject before, when the 1926 Model 18 flat-tank bitza fitted with 1925 TT crankcases came up for sale at Bonhams. I have just come across this rather indistinct snap of it taken in probably the late forties, when it was owned by the Bovingden Brothers - that's them in the back-ground.

The Bovingden Brothers and Bitza

Times were very different then and many a Vintage bike appeared with such niceties as aluminium mudguards and even dual seats. The object of the exercise was to get a bike up and running and if it meant fitting a few non-original parts, so be it. The Bovingden stable also included a CS1 fitted with thirties forks and doubtless other bikes I don't know about. By the time I joined the VMCC in 1958, the brothers seem to have discontinued their membership but I understand they were very active in the fledgling speed events organised  in the Club's early days.

1926 Model 18/25 Norton

-JdK- This Norton was spotted by Juris at the Morbidelli Museum in Italy where it is labelled as a "TT Model". And a nice machine it is. It has a Model 25 or Model 21 engine and a large oiltank but that doesn't make it a Works racer. The cylinder head - or at least the rocker pillars - is 1929, identified by the valve lifter. The frame is Model 18 or Model 19 as the distinctive Model 25 wrap-around magneto support lug is missing.

A nicely presented c1926 Model 18 - SOLD

-SG- The mid twenties Model 18 which has been mentioned before on this site is SOLD up for sale at the forthcoming Bonhams Auction in Stafford. It is certainly a good looking machine and looks very well restored. Much is made of the connection with Alec Bennett in the particulars but - as is also mentioned - this is very slender. Literally all that remains of the Bennett machine are the crankcases and suggesting that the bike 'incorporates the Alec Bennett TT engine' is just untrue.

As for the rest of the bike, the frame is 1926, the forks and front wheel are not as per the 1925 works bikes. Footrests and brake pedal are also incorrect for 1925 as is the cable operating set-up for the supplementary hand pump. To cap it all, the tanks and carburettor are also both incorrect for a 1925 TT model (click this link and this link and this link for photos of the original Bennett-Norton).

John takes the view that it could have been adequately described as 'a nicely presented c1926 Model 18 in sporting trim incorporating the crankcases from Alec Bennett's 1925 TT machine and a period racing gearbox!!'

While it will be good for Bonhams and the present owner if the price suggested (max £35,000) is attained, I believe this is excessive for what is on offer.

(postscript: when questioned about this Bonhams acknowledge that it is only the crankcases which are 'Bennett'; they will instruct the auctioneer to stress that fact)

OX1619 - Model 25 Norton?

-SG- Earlier in the month, the VMCC’s Annual Banbury Run took place and the Norton Owners Club stand had an interesting selection of Vintage Nortons on display. Pride of place was given to the Model 25 Replica OX1619 which has been mentioned briefly before - (Follow this link and this one) - and which I last saw a bit over twelve years back. It is certainly a very presentable machine but it is not a Model 25 neither is it a Works 1926 machine, and despite the descriptive placard, has  - as far as I can tell - no links with Jimmy Shaw. Indeed, the photo on the placard appears on page 29 of Davison’s book ‘The Story of the Ulster’ and this does not show the number plate clearly even though the first two letters - OX - can just be deciphered.

So what’s amiss with it as it stands? The frame has no number and in any case is standard Model 18; it lacks the wrap round magneto rod mounting on the front down tube. The drive side crankcase number 30801 comes from a Model 18 supplied in June 1926 to Wigan dealers A Rudd. The timing side crankcase is indeed Model 25 or Model 21. The LS gearbox end cover is a CS1/ES2 version with the top extension cut off. The gear change fitted is specifically intended for use with the CS gearbox used by Nortons and others from about 1920 to 1928 inclusive; it simply will not function in conjunction with an LS gearbox due to change lever dimensional differences. The pannier petrol tanks are indeed correct for the 1926 works bikes and a few were later supplied to special order fitted to production Model 25s. The oil tank also appears to be correct although fitted with the wrong size of filler cap. Minor points but worth mentioning, the magneto and carburettor are both incorrect, the rear tyre is the wrong size (20 inch) if it is pretending to be one of the works bikes, and the rear brake lever mechanism is incorrect!

Apart from pointing out a few things which seem to be wrong with OX1619 as it now exists, the machine with this number seems to have started life as a very interesting and rather special bike. It almost certainly started life as a racing spec. Model 19 with TT forks, pannier tanks, dry sump engine number 35589, Binks TT Carb. and frame number 28586. This was despatched in December 1927, as ‘second hand’ to the Coventry Motor Mart - a company with which Nortons had a very good relationship and to which other used works bikes were sold in the vintage years. Incidentally the existing V5 shows date of original registration as August 1927.

I do not have any record of the buyer or of what happened to the machine in the intervening years up to around 1950 but at this stage it was acquired by the late Derek Pickering of Coventry - still in 588cc guise.  However, during his ownership, the frame was changed for a standard 1928 Model 18 unit with number 33440 and crude lugs were brazed to the rear down tube to accept the TT style oil tank. Derek found that the 588cc engine would not fit into the model 18 frame, so without more ado he cut out the lower tank rail entirely and substituted a suitable length of tube with a 90 degree bend each end which he anchored into the sidecar lugs, thus missing the 588 valve gear! In this form it was raced in the Silverstone Saturday meetings organised by ‘Motor Cycling’ in the early fifties. What caused Derek to abandon the original frame is not known but it seems to have disappeared entirely. At some point later in the fifties, the 588cc engine self destructed and was replaced by a Vintage Model 18 unit and in this form it was sold to a chap in Kingston on Thames. Which - for those with enough stamina to have read this far - is where I came into the saga!

In 1959 the owner in Kingston responded to my ‘wanted’ advert for Vintage Norton parts and offered me the complete bike  (fitted with standard Webbs not TT type) plus some spares for £25, adding somewhat optimistically that he understood the bike was connected in some way to Stanley Woods - on account of the pannier tanks and a similar yarn spun to him by Derek Pickering! So I became the owner of OX1619 in what we may call its first re-incarnation.

At the time I was making tentative steps in the field of Vintage racing, using my 1930 Model 18 so without more ado I fitted the earlier engine from OX1619 and also robbed it of its 8” Enfield front brake. The hacked about flat tank frame and TT tanks were set aside for future consideration!

Over the next three or four years I obtained a dry sump engine - never discovered if it was Model 21 or 25 - another Model 18 flat tank frame and various other parts. I sold the lot for a modest sum to the Connelly brothers in Brighton in 1966 and, as far as I know, they built the machine in its present form - re-incarnation number two!  However, in registering its details with the VMCC they used the log book information rather than the actual engine and frame numbers (or lack of frame number!).  In due course it became part of the Autokraft collection at Brooklands, which was auctioned off when the company ran into financial problems in the late nineties and the bike became the property of the present owner for £10750 plus usual premiums, which raised a few eyebrows at the time! Rather a lot to pay for a replica.....

And the hacked about  1928 Model 18 frame which formed part of OX1619 when I bought it? I swapped it with the late Stan Johnson for some Norton pistons and after a few intervening owners and frame repairs, it has been restored as a tidy flat tank Model 18.

Pike's bike again.

-JdK- Last October we published an article about a Norton advertised as the 1926 Maudes Trophy winner ridden by Phil Pike. Tracing it's history revealed that the machine is a replica and the only 'Pike part' of the machine may be part of the frame. Which is fine, as it certainly is a nice machine but we think any prospective buyer should be aware about this part of the machine's history too.

The bike remained unsold at Bonhams and is now advertised on eBay. A carefully worded description is used and as with the Bonhams catalogue the suggestion remains that this machine is the genuine article. I contacted the vendor to ask for his opinion which is provided below.

"I have read the article and there are many items which could be disputed; however I cannot be bothered to argue. As far as I am concerned the bike is sound and good, how many restored bikes are original? Given the age and condition they are found in I expect it to be 10% original at best!! Certainly restored bikes usually have new wheels, rims, tank, forks, mudguards, toolboxes etc, etc., if this was not the case there would not be a thriving parts industry and there would be no need for Autojumbles! I have been as honest as I know in selling the bike, the article published does not know all of the facts and makes assumptions, if you have concerns then do not bid. Best regards, Dale"

The Fowler Fiasco - or the 'NOT FOWLER' TT Norton

Rem Fowler and O2763

Rem Fowler and O2763

Percy Webb with his creation outside his workshop

-SG- Bonhams' recent and in my view, rather feeble protestations about the 1926 588cc side-car outfit linked to Phil Pike reminded me of a long running and rather ill humoured (on both sides!) exchange of messages I had a couple of years back with the top dog at the National Motorcycle Museum (NMM), Simon Hartland. These related to the machine which has been touted by the museum and many others as the actual bike on which Rem Fowler (above) won the multi cylinder class of the inaugural 1907 TT. Despite my perhaps pompous suggestion that they owed it to their visitors to label their exhibits accurately, the NMM people refused to accept written evidence provided to them which shows clearly that the machine was nothing but a fake. It was assembled in the early fifties from parts garnered from the south of England, by an enterprising back street dealer in Maidstone called Percy Webb (third pic from above). I am aware that the machine was another casualty of the NMM fire (below) and has been skilfully rebuilt by Dr J C (George) Cohen who also subscribes to the view that it is original - seemingly on the basis that Titch Allen once stated that it might be. (Photos above and below taken from Cohen's website)

Percy's creation after the fire

And as restored by George Cohen

Percy sold the bike to John Griffith - at the time a journalist on 'Motor Cycling.' John unearthed Rem Fowler and the whole sorry affair has rumbled on from there. It would take too much space to re-produce everything in my large file on this matter but a few excerpts are attached.

Rem Fowler with Percy's bike in about 1958. The occasion is when John Griffith took the bike round to Rem's house for him to see it

The first (above) relates how the bike was assembled in the first place by Percy. I have removed the writer's name and address, although he gave me permission to sent his letter 'as is' to Simon Hartland.

The second (above) shows a copy of the receipt Percy gave John G for the bike. This is one of many carbon copies from the duplicate book Percy used for his correspondence. Other copies show he wrote to the licensing authorities and managed to get back the reg. number O2763, and that he had noticed that the tank on the actual 1907 bike was a good deal deeper than the one he had acquired (in a letter to Nortons).

Then there is a copy of my letter of July 2008 to the NMM (above), with which all the above copies and many more, were sent.

And finally there is a note from Bruce Main Smith - a colleague of John Griffith on the 'Motor Cycling' staff - which confirmed that Griffith knew full well the bike was nothing to do with Rem Fowler. This, too, was sent to the NMM.

From Roy Bacon's "Norton Buyers Guide"

By August 2008 I had had no reply from the NMM so sent a polite reminder. This was acknowledged and receipt of my letter and copies was confirmed. I was assured that the matter would be looked into as a matter of high priority. The weeks rolled by and eventually, after a wait of over twelve months, I sent a somewhat sarcastic reminder and the email argument already mentioned began, which at one point included a thinly veiled threat of legal action! However it culminated in statements from the NMM that the machine shown in the museum as the Fowler Norton IS THE REAL THING, that I was confused between the Fowler bike and another early Norton owned by the Museum and that the documentary evidence provided by me in fact ALL related to this 'other' machine.....

There is an old saying that, when you're knocking your head against a brick wall, it's nice to stop: I did!

Howard in Australia has been in touch to say that he wrote to the NMM about the machine but received no reply. He goes on to say that Peugeot made a couple of different engine types at the time, one of which was their 'proprietary' engine and was supplied to other motor cycle manufacturers, such as Nortons. This apparently did not have the three bolt rear engine mounting incorporated in the new crankcase castings used in Cohen's post-fire rebuild. He advises that the same incorrect crankcase castings were also used in the DOT Owners Club reproduction of the 1908 TT winning DOT.'

Mike from Wales, a long term pre WW1 Norton devotee, has drawn our attention to the 1909-ish Chater Lea so well illustrated on the British Only web site and depicted above. The frame has an astonishing similarity to that used in the Fowler recreation. In fact, visually, it looks nearly identical. If it is, the question arises: is the frame used by Percy Webb actually not even a Norton product but a Chater Lea?

Roger: "I am not convinced that the frame of the Rem replica is a Chater Lea. Although the frames do look very similar there is a significant difference in the bracing of the steering head. As Chater Lea supplied lug castings to the industry I would not be surprised to find virtually identical structures in the Norton of the same period. My great uncle set up a company in 1907 to make frames and his brochure of around 1909 states that he can build custom frames but more significantly offered to update the frames of earlier machines to take the slimmer tank. None of this makes the Rem machine any more authentic as the differences between the frame shown in the contemporary pictures of it in 1907 could not have been modified to the shape of the replica."

John: "Looking at the picture of the Chater Lea, the most convincing detail for me is the difference in the position of the crankcase in the frame. On the Chater Lea and the bike in the NMM the engine is higher relative to the pedal crank than on Rem's machine. Indeed the pedal crank is in a different place too; at the root of the down tube on Rem's bike but further aft on the Chater Lea and the bike in the NMM. They really do look completely different and the frame of the bike in the NMM looks much more like the Chater Lea than Rem's machine."

Simon:"Here is a scan (above) of the carbon copy of the letter Percy sent to Birmingham regarding the registration number.  The letter reads  (spelling unchanged):


The Licence Controller
Councill House
Birmingham

Dear Sir
Please can you look up your old Motor Registeration records if possible and help to trace no/ O2763.

I have recently come into my possession a very old Motor Cycle of a period 1906 or 7. As thear is no name on it only a PF engine.  I think it is a very early Norton make.  If you could let me have any details I should be very much oblidged.

Thanking you

P C Webb


As can be seen from this, Percy actually had no proof the frame he had acquired was Norton and, of course, he obtained the engine from a different source to the frame. Doubtless the helpful civil servants in Birmingham gave him all the detail he needed to give his creation an aura of authenticity.

Steve in New Zealand: "George in Tasmania has a Chater Lea with a twin JAP engine in it (pic above from Flickr-Georgedulcots).  It is interesting to compare the photo of the burnt out "Rem Fowler" machine, with the Chater Lea frames, both the above twin and the single shown on your site. The following points should be noted with the so called "Rem's Machine"  Where the back stays connect to the top frame tube, compare  with the twin cylinder frame in Tasmania, which also has a horizontal saddle mounting, as the original 1907 Norton.  Note the single cylinder Chater -Lea has a more conventional saddle post mounting and some jiggery pokery would be needed to get the horizontal seat mounting. Pa Norton would have turning in his grave to see such a concoction of two lugs side by side with the back stays not bolted directly to the down tube of the main frame diamond, not what you would call best engineering practice!    Also looking at the angles of the rear stays  and the chain stays are virtually identical to that of the so called "Rem's Machine" to the single , but on the twin the back stays are at a slightly steeper angle but not as steep as on the original 1907 Norton.  The distance at the bottom of the frame diamond either side of the engine is  twin the longer on the twin than on than on the  single but compare the distance between both the Chater-Lea frames with the 1907 Norton. The position of the the pedal crank has been mentioned but compare both relative to the crankcase on the so called "Rem's machine"  That of the twin frame the crank is much closer to the crankcase and the triangle formed by the diagonal brace is much smaller than the single, which would seem to confirm that "Rem's machine" was based on an old single cylinder Chater-Lea frame suitably doctored. Also compare the height of the crankcase on "Rem's machine" relative to the bottom bracket/crank  on the 1907 original.


The headstock on the "Rem machine" bears little relation to the 1907 original, comparing the two, the gap difference between the cross bars is obvious, the distance between the junction of the front downtube and the lower "top tube" and that of the front downtube with the headstock  means the tank depth on "Rem's Machine" is much less, compared to the 1907 machine. Also note the difference in height of the top of the steering head above the top tube, it was easy to chop out the headstock brace, but interestingly, looking at the the photo of the burnt out wreck there looks to be some sort of possible repair/modification to the headstock."

Roger: "The clipping above comes from an article written by John Griffiths. It was originally published in Motorcycle Sport but I fond it in LJK Setright's excellent book Twistgrip. Looking at the pictures of the engine in 1907 and the exhaust pipe fittings it is clear that the original fittings were not castellations but a ring with holes for a C-spanner.  Looking at the pictures of Will Cooke's NLG at Brooklands the same year his Peugeot engine was fitted with hexagonal fittings similar to those on the Fowler engine. Presumably this was done to allow the adjustable spanner carried by all riders to be used rather than carry an extra C-spanner. It would appear that even the pipe fittings were not a good indication that it was an engine that had anything to do with Rem. The recent pictures of the engine (2007 Goodwood) show that the hexagonal fittings no longer have the holes for the C-spanner. looking at the pre-restoration pictures this was also the case so it was true even before the fire. What a pity that the last link with Caeser's axe disappeared some time ago."

-SG- Postcript April 2023: The other day I was given a copy of the Montagu Motor Museum Catalogue for 1959 (below). And lo and behold! a new story (to me) for the origin of the Rem Fowler fake! Original run over by a lorry!  Wonder if the National Motorcycle Museum knows that?