1932 Assen TT winners

From "50 jaar TT. H. Harmsze"

-JdK- In the pic above we see Joe Craig, Stanley Woods and Tim Hunt in Assen in 1932. Woods and Hunt were the winners of the 350cc and 500cc class respectively; not sure if the Norton is the Model 30 or 40. The photos below were sent by George Cohen and depict Hunt's Winning cup for this event. The abbreviations on the label stand for: Grote Prijs van Nederland. Tourist Trophy 1932. Eerste prijs klasse C.  Note that the 'P' in P. Hunt comes from Tim's real name, Percy.

1927 Model 18 Norton - For sale

For sale again, this time at Yesterdays. A 1927 Model 18.

-SG- The fuel tank is surely a replica and seems slightly wrong shape at front.  Oil tank - if original - is earlier than 1927.  The B and B carb has no air slide and weird trumpet on it.  Clutch cover on primary chain case is wrong.  Cylinder head has 1929 type exhaust valve lifter mechanism. Sporty mudguards look quite nice but marred by mudguard stays being a bit wide.  Front wheel looks to be 1930s Inter and front forks may be 1930s Norton though correct Webb links and dampers for 1927 are fitted.

Paul from Australia has pointed out a very relevant feature relating to this bike: the head appears to be a 1930 type (note fin shape and size of cutaways, which are large enough to clear pushrod-tubes). Some years ago now, the late Bob Mosdell of Maidenhead had a head like this on his 1930 ES2, which at the time, had an open push-rod engine in it. Regrettably I can't remember if the two bosses on which the rocker standards are mounted were present in the head casting he used or if he had to do some modifications to make it all work.....

Sold last September for £15,540; current asking price €24,500.

The Fowler Fiasco - or the 'NOT FOWLER' TT Norton

Rem Fowler and O2763

Rem Fowler and O2763

Percy Webb with his creation outside his workshop

-SG- Bonhams' recent and in my view, rather feeble protestations about the 1926 588cc side-car outfit linked to Phil Pike reminded me of a long running and rather ill humoured (on both sides!) exchange of messages I had a couple of years back with the top dog at the National Motorcycle Museum (NMM), Simon Hartland. These related to the machine which has been touted by the museum and many others as the actual bike on which Rem Fowler (above) won the multi cylinder class of the inaugural 1907 TT. Despite my perhaps pompous suggestion that they owed it to their visitors to label their exhibits accurately, the NMM people refused to accept written evidence provided to them which shows clearly that the machine was nothing but a fake. It was assembled in the early fifties from parts garnered from the south of England, by an enterprising back street dealer in Maidstone called Percy Webb (third pic from above). I am aware that the machine was another casualty of the NMM fire (below) and has been skilfully rebuilt by Dr J C (George) Cohen who also subscribes to the view that it is original - seemingly on the basis that Titch Allen once stated that it might be. (Photos above and below taken from Cohen's website)

Percy's creation after the fire

And as restored by George Cohen

Percy sold the bike to John Griffith - at the time a journalist on 'Motor Cycling.' John unearthed Rem Fowler and the whole sorry affair has rumbled on from there. It would take too much space to re-produce everything in my large file on this matter but a few excerpts are attached.

Rem Fowler with Percy's bike in about 1958. The occasion is when John Griffith took the bike round to Rem's house for him to see it

The first (above) relates how the bike was assembled in the first place by Percy. I have removed the writer's name and address, although he gave me permission to sent his letter 'as is' to Simon Hartland.

The second (above) shows a copy of the receipt Percy gave John G for the bike. This is one of many carbon copies from the duplicate book Percy used for his correspondence. Other copies show he wrote to the licensing authorities and managed to get back the reg. number O2763, and that he had noticed that the tank on the actual 1907 bike was a good deal deeper than the one he had acquired (in a letter to Nortons).

Then there is a copy of my letter of July 2008 to the NMM (above), with which all the above copies and many more, were sent.

And finally there is a note from Bruce Main Smith - a colleague of John Griffith on the 'Motor Cycling' staff - which confirmed that Griffith knew full well the bike was nothing to do with Rem Fowler. This, too, was sent to the NMM.

From Roy Bacon's "Norton Buyers Guide"

By August 2008 I had had no reply from the NMM so sent a polite reminder. This was acknowledged and receipt of my letter and copies was confirmed. I was assured that the matter would be looked into as a matter of high priority. The weeks rolled by and eventually, after a wait of over twelve months, I sent a somewhat sarcastic reminder and the email argument already mentioned began, which at one point included a thinly veiled threat of legal action! However it culminated in statements from the NMM that the machine shown in the museum as the Fowler Norton IS THE REAL THING, that I was confused between the Fowler bike and another early Norton owned by the Museum and that the documentary evidence provided by me in fact ALL related to this 'other' machine.....

There is an old saying that, when you're knocking your head against a brick wall, it's nice to stop: I did!

Howard in Australia has been in touch to say that he wrote to the NMM about the machine but received no reply. He goes on to say that Peugeot made a couple of different engine types at the time, one of which was their 'proprietary' engine and was supplied to other motor cycle manufacturers, such as Nortons. This apparently did not have the three bolt rear engine mounting incorporated in the new crankcase castings used in Cohen's post-fire rebuild. He advises that the same incorrect crankcase castings were also used in the DOT Owners Club reproduction of the 1908 TT winning DOT.'

Mike from Wales, a long term pre WW1 Norton devotee, has drawn our attention to the 1909-ish Chater Lea so well illustrated on the British Only web site and depicted above. The frame has an astonishing similarity to that used in the Fowler recreation. In fact, visually, it looks nearly identical. If it is, the question arises: is the frame used by Percy Webb actually not even a Norton product but a Chater Lea?

Roger: "I am not convinced that the frame of the Rem replica is a Chater Lea. Although the frames do look very similar there is a significant difference in the bracing of the steering head. As Chater Lea supplied lug castings to the industry I would not be surprised to find virtually identical structures in the Norton of the same period. My great uncle set up a company in 1907 to make frames and his brochure of around 1909 states that he can build custom frames but more significantly offered to update the frames of earlier machines to take the slimmer tank. None of this makes the Rem machine any more authentic as the differences between the frame shown in the contemporary pictures of it in 1907 could not have been modified to the shape of the replica."

John: "Looking at the picture of the Chater Lea, the most convincing detail for me is the difference in the position of the crankcase in the frame. On the Chater Lea and the bike in the NMM the engine is higher relative to the pedal crank than on Rem's machine. Indeed the pedal crank is in a different place too; at the root of the down tube on Rem's bike but further aft on the Chater Lea and the bike in the NMM. They really do look completely different and the frame of the bike in the NMM looks much more like the Chater Lea than Rem's machine."

Simon:"Here is a scan (above) of the carbon copy of the letter Percy sent to Birmingham regarding the registration number.  The letter reads  (spelling unchanged):


The Licence Controller
Councill House
Birmingham

Dear Sir
Please can you look up your old Motor Registeration records if possible and help to trace no/ O2763.

I have recently come into my possession a very old Motor Cycle of a period 1906 or 7. As thear is no name on it only a PF engine.  I think it is a very early Norton make.  If you could let me have any details I should be very much oblidged.

Thanking you

P C Webb


As can be seen from this, Percy actually had no proof the frame he had acquired was Norton and, of course, he obtained the engine from a different source to the frame. Doubtless the helpful civil servants in Birmingham gave him all the detail he needed to give his creation an aura of authenticity.

Steve in New Zealand: "George in Tasmania has a Chater Lea with a twin JAP engine in it (pic above from Flickr-Georgedulcots).  It is interesting to compare the photo of the burnt out "Rem Fowler" machine, with the Chater Lea frames, both the above twin and the single shown on your site. The following points should be noted with the so called "Rem's Machine"  Where the back stays connect to the top frame tube, compare  with the twin cylinder frame in Tasmania, which also has a horizontal saddle mounting, as the original 1907 Norton.  Note the single cylinder Chater -Lea has a more conventional saddle post mounting and some jiggery pokery would be needed to get the horizontal seat mounting. Pa Norton would have turning in his grave to see such a concoction of two lugs side by side with the back stays not bolted directly to the down tube of the main frame diamond, not what you would call best engineering practice!    Also looking at the angles of the rear stays  and the chain stays are virtually identical to that of the so called "Rem's Machine" to the single , but on the twin the back stays are at a slightly steeper angle but not as steep as on the original 1907 Norton.  The distance at the bottom of the frame diamond either side of the engine is  twin the longer on the twin than on than on the  single but compare the distance between both the Chater-Lea frames with the 1907 Norton. The position of the the pedal crank has been mentioned but compare both relative to the crankcase on the so called "Rem's machine"  That of the twin frame the crank is much closer to the crankcase and the triangle formed by the diagonal brace is much smaller than the single, which would seem to confirm that "Rem's machine" was based on an old single cylinder Chater-Lea frame suitably doctored. Also compare the height of the crankcase on "Rem's machine" relative to the bottom bracket/crank  on the 1907 original.


The headstock on the "Rem machine" bears little relation to the 1907 original, comparing the two, the gap difference between the cross bars is obvious, the distance between the junction of the front downtube and the lower "top tube" and that of the front downtube with the headstock  means the tank depth on "Rem's Machine" is much less, compared to the 1907 machine. Also note the difference in height of the top of the steering head above the top tube, it was easy to chop out the headstock brace, but interestingly, looking at the the photo of the burnt out wreck there looks to be some sort of possible repair/modification to the headstock."

Roger: "The clipping above comes from an article written by John Griffiths. It was originally published in Motorcycle Sport but I fond it in LJK Setright's excellent book Twistgrip. Looking at the pictures of the engine in 1907 and the exhaust pipe fittings it is clear that the original fittings were not castellations but a ring with holes for a C-spanner.  Looking at the pictures of Will Cooke's NLG at Brooklands the same year his Peugeot engine was fitted with hexagonal fittings similar to those on the Fowler engine. Presumably this was done to allow the adjustable spanner carried by all riders to be used rather than carry an extra C-spanner. It would appear that even the pipe fittings were not a good indication that it was an engine that had anything to do with Rem. The recent pictures of the engine (2007 Goodwood) show that the hexagonal fittings no longer have the holes for the C-spanner. looking at the pre-restoration pictures this was also the case so it was true even before the fire. What a pity that the last link with Caeser's axe disappeared some time ago."

-SG- Postcript April 2023: The other day I was given a copy of the Montagu Motor Museum Catalogue for 1959 (below). And lo and behold! a new story (to me) for the origin of the Rem Fowler fake! Original run over by a lorry!  Wonder if the National Motorcycle Museum knows that?

Norton engines - SOLD

Jiří in the Czech Republic has SOLD two more engines for sale; a Model 18 numbered 30199 and a CS1 numbered 42705. Both engines are said to be complete and in decent condition. The Binks carb on the CS1 is not for sale. Contact us and we'll forward your request.

Stanley, c1927 Norton

Stanley Woods again, well-dressed and this time with a 1920s Norton that is difficult to identify. Note the forward-mounted magneto, narrow mudguards and the ''square'' saddle tank. What is it? It has a Dublin registration.

-SG- It looks to me like a Model 18/19 - or 25 - or 1926 TT bike - fitted with ES Druids. The last possibility I rather doubt as it seems not to have an 8 inch front brake. The tank is the TT pannier type (they also supplied a few fitted to Model 25s). Date wise it has to be after the introduction of the ES Druid forks which was I think 1927.

Stanley Woods, 1929 Model CS1, Assen TT

From 50 jaar TT. Han Harmsze

Stanley Woods checking the plug of his Norton Model CS1 at the 1929 Assen TT. According to the text with this picture Stanley was in a bad mood that year as the engine was not as good as it should have been.

Norton Model 30s, 1938

From Het Motorrijwiel 9, 1994

The caption to this picture reads: "Fergus Anderson, Bill Beevers en H.D. Myers working on their Nortons". Probably at the Assen TT in 1938. The motorcycles look like Model 30s.

1928 Model CS1 Norton - SOLD

For sale SOLD; a 1928 Moore-engined CS1. It deviates from original specs in many areas, most notably the front forks and primary chain case are from a later model. The asking price is steep at 24.000 euro but in view of what's not correct you may be able to negotiate a better price. Contact the vendor directly:

Moto Boutique Zimmermann
3254 Messen SO Switserland
Tel: 031/ 765 60 60
info@m-b-z.ch

Bonhams Sale 19290 - Classic Motorcycle Mechanics Show, Stafford, 16 Oct 2011

In the Bonhams catalogue

CO9608

-SG- A well restored 1926 four speed 588 OHV outfit accompanied by much verbal bally-hoo in the Bonhams catalogue linking it to Phil Pike and the special outfit he rode in the 1926 ISDT and, shortly after, to win the Maudes Trophy for  Nortons. The facts of the matter are not quite so definite as Bonhams' script writer suggests. The only original 'Pike' part of the machine appears to be the frame - or part of it - as Barry Tyreman had to remedy the unfortunate fact that when the frame was acquired, the head lug and front down tube were missing. That he managed to build a bike of this standard atall from such poor remains is a matter for which he should be congratulated. It appears that all of the rest of the bike came from accumulated parts or parts acquired for the project. The one major item Barry was unable to source was a set of the correct four spring Druid forks so he modified a later pair of two spring Druids to suit the tall headstock of the frame. The tanks also were made for the project - hence the standard small oil tank fitted during the early stages of assembly (pic below) and the large oil tank with frame mounting lugs on the finished product. The present crankcases started life in a Model 18 despatched in May 1927.

Apart from  failing to mention that so little of the bike is actually original, Bonhams' blurb wrongly describes the bike as a Model 19 and wrongly describes the Big Four as being 588cc 79 x 120. Who writes their stuff for them, for goodness sake?  If a model number can be ascribed to the machine atall, it is more akin to the Model 44 although Barry tells me the frame differs slightly as the Pike bike has rather less ground clearance. And just to add to the blurred picture, the Science Museum letter is also slightly incorrect - though we can't blame Bonhams for that!  The actual entry in the despatch books reads as follows:

Engine number 30818: Frame number 21180: Magneto number 95544: 588 OHV: B and B carb.:  26 x 3.25 W.O Tyres: 4 Speed: HWT Shock Abs. Druid forks (ie Druid forks with heavyweight shock absorbers): Tank number 514. Extras: 8" Front Brake and Steering damper. Despatched 25/6/26  to Pike P  (ie Pike Plymouth).

Note brazing, new headlug and front downtube

Just after completion

The photos directly above, courtesy Barry, show the bike during assembly and just after it was completed.


Bonhams' comments:

"We’ll forward to the vendor for his info.

Technically the description is correct - the frame was the one used - albeit it has had a major rebuild incorporating non-original parts (which is what we advised prospective purchasers over the weekend).

As with any machine it is always sold strictly as viewed and you did exactly what every prospective purchaser should do and research a lot it in advance of the sale.

But one or two points (and I must defend our descriptions). They are written on the basis of what the vendor advises and provides. We always endeavour to research a motorcycle ourselves but time is, as always, a factor. But where new information does come to light in advance of a sale we will place a saleroom notice or ‘addendum’ on the machine.

You will also note ‘Model 19’ in the title is in inverted commas and that it is described as a Model 19-based outfit (further on we state its specification is approximating to that of a Model 19). I think Norton by Mick Woollett records the Big Four as being 588cc 79 x 120 - and this may have been where that info came from - but I’ll double check!


Kind regards,

Ben
Department Director
Collectors' Motorcycles
Bonhams, 101 New Bond Street, London, W1S 1SR"

John's 1930 Model 18 Norton

John in the UK sent these pics of his 1930 Model 18, enquiring about whether it could be correct that it is a 1930 Norton delivered to a customer as late as August 1931.

-SG- According to the works records it was despatched  29/8/31. The dealer was MotorMyles of Richmond (Surrey) and no final customer name is shown. It was not atall unusual for 1930 Models to be shipped in 1931 - a result of the depression - and all the Model 18s above and below this particular entry are also 1930 Models shipped out in '31. As expected they are all equipped with 1931 Norton forks rather than Webbs and the fork number in this case was 3383.  This is usually stamped on the lower bridge.  Fitting rebound spring links and dampers from a later model was probably a good idea bearing in mind the lack of adjustment of the dampers on the standard 1931 forks, which I have rabbitted on about before!

Piet van Wijngaarden, 1938 Assen TT, Model 40 Norton

-JdK- Piet van Wijngaarden and his Model 40 Norton; looking at the wear-and-tear it could be this 1937 machine. Great pic that shows the ventilated brake drum, plunger rear suspension and rev counter.

Harold Daniell, 1931 MGP, Model CS1 Norton

-SG- This photo of Harold Daniell in the 1931 MGP shows it's not always that easy to identify a Norton! Harold had a three stay CS1 bought in 1930 on which he retired in that year's MGP. It was sent back to the works for updating and came back with a new two stay frame, four speed box and engine updates etc. for the 1931 event. This explains why the photo above, taken in 1931 shows the bike with Webb forks, two stay frame - but still with the 8 inch Enfield front wheel and the oil box on the front engine plates from its 1930 origins. Another giveaway is the 1930 paint scheme. Note the 19" wheels.

note added: checked if this 1930 mount was specifically listed in the records. Rather to my surprise I found it without too much of a search and the details of it are as follows:

Model: CS1 Engine number: 49061 Frame Number: 42523 Gearbox Number: 161375 (this is a Vintage three speed LS type box) Forks: W650 (ie TT Webbs) Extras: Two Racing twist grips, TT Large Tanks, Oil Filler on left, Petroflex Pipes, ML Magneto, Specially tuned engine for RD1 (ie alcohol fuel). Despatched 1/8/30 to A L England, East Pennard. Retail customer : H L Daniell, 37 Winn Road, Lee,  London SE12, who took delivery 9/8/30.

Quite why Daniell - who I understand was already in the garage business with his brother - obtained the bike through a company in a small village in Somerset, a hundred miles away, I cannot imagine! Incidentally, use of alcohol fuel was permitted in the MGP.

This particular machine seems to form part of a small group possibly despatched in time for the 1930 MGP although they are not lsted as 'Special for Manx Grand Prix' like the '31 machines already featured. The adjacent one with a rather similar specification was despatched to none other than Ron Harris of Maidenhead.

1930 Model CS1 Norton

-JdK- A photo found in an old copy of "Motor" and in my biased opinion one of the best looking Carroll-CS1s ever! Specs include a three-stay frame, heavy-duty TT Webbs, 8" Enfield hub rear, probably the 7" Horton hub at front, 20"/21" wheels rear/front, positive-stop Sturmey-Archer box without kickstart, Lucas KS1 magneto, straight-thru pipe. Carburetter probably an Amal and fitted horizontally in the conventional 1920s manner, not a flange fitting. The licence OF9502 was issued between May 1929 and April 1930 in Birmingham. All of which suggests a works special.

Surprisingly, the OF9502 licence featured on these pages before but on a very different Norton (below)! The pic comes from an article in The MotorCycle and in the caption suggests it used to be Woods' bike and that it was crashed into a van. Looking at the differences (note the frame and downdraught cylinderhead), about the only thing these bikes seem to have in common is the numberplate... and the CS1 above seems to be the earlier one.

-SG- Obviously Nortons, like plenty of other manufacturers, had no qualms about moving registration numbers around when it suited them. Wonder if they stamped up the two stay frame with the three stay frame number. The three stay photo (top) has appeared in various places and seems to be a retouched publicity photo of - more or less - a 1930 TT Specifications bike although it is not wearing the small chain oiler tank on the front engine plates. I have seen it in John Griffith's book 'Famous Racing Motorcycles' and as he worked for Motor Cycling, he perhaps obtained it from their archives. As the Torrens road test reveals, in its two stay form the bike was Woods' Ulster winner and at that time the gear box was still three speed, not four. OF9502 was loaned to and ridden by J Sugg in the 1931 MGP. He then bought it and in due course passed it on to Joe Hoult who passed it on to Chris Harrison - see CEA/Norton Story. By the time Chris got it, it had Norton check spring forks and a four speed box.

The 1931 Assen TT races

From "50 jaar TT. H. Harmsze"

Woods chasing Gleave

-JdK- Two wins for Norton in Assen in 1931; Stanley Woods (45) won the 350cc class after Gleave wrecked the engine of his New Imperial running out of oil in one of the last laps. Tim Hunt (88) was the winner in the 500cc class. Note the typical Norton girder forks (with a damper knob on each side of the lower spindle) fitted to 1931 Works TT machines.

Tim Hunt

The MGP, TT and CS1 works bikes

John's CS1

John's CS1 at Guthrie's memorial

John from the UK sent a few pics (above) of a very nice 1931 CS1 Norton (supplied to Godfreys, Croydon branch in August '31) which in the Works Records (below) is described as 'Special for the Manx Grand Prix'; so what does this tag indicate?

-SG- This bike has been nicely dealt with but there seems to be a few 'modernising' things done to it.  The forks  (according to the records) should be TT Webbs ("W650"); it has later forks and front wheel from an Inter.  The rear wheel should be Enfield and has been changed for a Norton one. It has been fitted with a Norton clutch rather than the six spring Sturmey Archer type. The hairpin springs are also later of course.

It is a sister machine of the three all listed together as despatched in time for the 1931 Manx Grand Prix (MGP) and in my view, it cannot be seriously described as an 'ex works' 1931 bike.  These differed in several respects as can be seen from the various 1931 TT (TT as opposed to MGP) photos which have already appeared on this website.

Another of these three MGP machines was despatched to L P Driscoll (apart from being a Brooklands regular of great repute, he also had a motor cycle business in West London) though it is not known to whom he supplied it. And the last of them is known as the 'Ron Harris machine' (see the two pics below) which had engine number 51709 and four speed gear box number  3317 (very close to John's CS1). This also had TT Webbs rather than Nortons own forks and was quite carefully researched by Titch Allen. Titch in his younger days was well known as a  'just get it going' sort of bloke (steel tape round fork spindles, bits of Meccano etc.) but he used his many contacts and long experience in diligently researching his later life projects. It is now in the National Motorcycle Museum accompanied by a rather fulsome and inaccurate notice (no surprise there, then!).

Ron Harris' CS1

Ron Harris' CS1

Basically I don't think the Harris bike or the other two despatched at same time were 'works bikes' as such: just specially built CS1s for use in the MGP by favoured runners.  I think one has to remember that it was only two years since all the fuss about cheating in the Amateur (that is, the fore-runner of the MGP rather than the TT itself) and although the rules were made rather simpler with the coming of the MGP in 1930 (below), I suspect most manufacturers were twitchy about being too blatant in their support.

My view is simply that 'Special for Manx Grand Prix' means just that - special work done on it to make it faster/better than an over the counter two or three stay framed CS1.  If it was a TT machine (so not an MGP machine) or to TT spec. then the records would probably say so: there are several despatch book entries which say 'TT Specification' in the early thirties.  So, even if there were three special specification Nortons in the '31 MGP it does not make them true Works bike replicas.  What was so special about them anyway?  At this range it has to be guesswork but the four speed boxes would be one aspect and doubtless the engines were fairly, if not fully, up to the minute.

Not far above the entries for the three bikes for the MGP are the entries for the actual works TT bikes with their registration numbers - all are shown as being fitted with special '31 TT forks. These '31 TT forks were made by Nortons with a damper knob each side of the lower spindle.  The production Norton forks in '31 did not have this adjustment facility.  Fitting the TT Webbs - superseded as far as the works bikes were concerned - which also have adjustment of the damping via the wing nuts on the lower links would give the riders good forks without risk of criticism from the authorities or others that the bikes were Works TT bikes.  In many respects - forks and wheels excluded! - these three bikes would be like early versions of racing spec. Inters which were introduced at the '31 show, just a few weeks down the track. Incidentally the works bikes for '31 did not have Enfield rear hubs - see the pics - which also show the works forks.

As to who actually rode John's CS1 (or the one supplied to Driscoll) in the MGP event - or if it even competed at all - is not easy to tell; careful scrutiny of all the race reports (below) and pre-event articles possibly tells which club the various riders belonged to and supply of this machine to Godfreys Croydon might mean the rider was a member of a club local to Croydon - ie South to South West London area.